Tournament Strategies - Rushing

I've played only about 40 tournament games so far, so I'm no expert.

However I have done 2 good games with Illian, and fought 38 other people.

Here are some tricks I would recommend keeping in mind doing tournaments.

1. People tend to get cocky when they draw expensive troops in their army. I fought a guy that had a treant/longbow, and rushed right at my keep in the beginning with 5 troops. I kited him through the center of my side of the board and spawned a heavy cav troop that I used to pretty much wipe his army.
2. YOU CAN'T LOSE THE OPENING BATTLE WITHOUT TAKING A SPAWN POINT. This is a big rule. If you rush the opponent you had better win the overall damage number or gain a watchtower to spawn reenforcements at. If you WIPE on your assault and you are down in terms of points, then you HAVE to assault again. You can't go defensive, the opponent can just wait for the clock to tick out.
3. Save your big cards until the first battle has begun. Rush with commons. If you are going to push, bring your commons. You will need those big cards later. Just be afraid of AE troops.

These troops are some of the BEST to use early:

PIKEMAN - Slaughters any cav that attack your troops
HEAVY INFANTRY - Kills annoying machines
HUMAN JAVELINEERS - Kills cav
HUMAN XBOWS - Long range makes opponent have to fight you
HUMAN ARCHERS - Kills the dragons that come to AE you.

If you rush, use as big a pack as you can, you need to be able to sit on your watchtower and cap it. Target opponent that can counter cap your watchtower first. Ignore the ranged. You may want to fient to one watchtower and send a light cav to another for a cap. Sending 4 infantry to a watchtower and 1 to another is a good strategy.

Once you TAKE the watchtower set your spawn point and GARRISON all your hurt troops and bring out your factional troops. The opponent will have been trying to kill your commons, and now have to deal with fresh factionals.

Now pound him with your factionals.

Sample Tournament Video - Short

This shows the battle between me and Illian (he won) :)

Gives you an idea of the layout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGTKe_as1rA - Direct Link

Moving your resources off to alts is a waste...

• So one of the tricks people do when getting raided alot is to move their resources, stone/gold/lumber off to a level 1 Alt account.

• This was something I did early, until I found out that even with 0 resources, someone was still able to make 200 resources off me through a raid.

• Mana Mines are the only exception. The shards someone gets is directly proportional to your total.

So if you are going to war footing, and think that your high gold count is a problem, the answer is assuredly no. Save your gold, it's nice to have it available for repairs.

Setting up Undead to counter PvP openings

So I was thinking about the standard counters to 150CP PvP battle opening with undead.

Alot of players tend to open the same way in PvP, then adjust as the battle proceeds.

For example Christian's the "PACman" opens with phoenix's and clerics.

Illian tends to open with Treants/stone giants/eagles.

Slobboik opens with heavy cav/ravens/dark elf bowman.

Kheldara opens with chariots/giant bows.

The question is what is standard opening going to be for Undead Players? Figuring this out both lets you plan which troops are crutial to level first, and what other armies need to counter them from the jump.

I think the most successful opening will be Bone Wagons heading to cap opponents buildings and Wights in the sky.

Bone Wagons are counter for heavy cav. They are one of the few ranged units that can deal with heavy cav and trade damage for damage. If you are capping the opponents outer buildings and hopefully shrines, he HAS to bring the battle to you.

Wights will stop the early rush of Air, and force the opponent to go to the ground. If the opponent has Air and rushs your Bone Wagons, the advantage of the Wagons and Wights is they will be slowed and attacked by every unit. Bone Wagons have an advantage over Heavy Cav due to the fact they are still ranged and able to shoot at flyers.

Once the opponent goes to the ground, and fields something to deal with your Wights, like strong ground based ranged units, now you go to your Abominations. Garrison your Wights and bring out your pack of Abominations. I wouldn't suggest rushing their ranged, but instead capping more buildings. With the Abominations hps, passive defence, and speed, they will be able to rush and cap opposing buildings.

And anything, even Lancers that rush Abominations will not make short work of them. They are not squishy at all.

If they go to the sky to deal with your Abominations, then its time for the Wights again. Garrison your Bone Wagons, and bring up your 2nd set of Wights.

In terms of counters, Nature brings alot of long range shooters to the party. However if you concentrate on capping buildings with Abominations, only the elven longbows will be a threat. Treants will have a harder time hitting Abominations through their armor passive. Luckly Elven Longbowman are pretty squishy. One unit of Heavy Cav can make a Elven Longbowman retreat.

Machine brings Wooden Tanks and now the new Improved faster Mech Giant to the table. Machines are definitely a bane of Abominations capping, but luckly you can field 5 behemoths now to counter any heavy machine army, with 3 armored behemoths and 2 regular. 5 level 10 behemoths are frustrating to machine players.

Magic brings the overwhelming dps upgrades of the Dark Elf bowman and Ravens. Sadly the DE bows have little AR, so they will miss Abominations pretty frequently. I would say ignore them. Ravens are no match for Wights, so you counter the two best units of Magic from the beginning. Magic will have to dig in their bag of tricks to counter undead, which means you have the opening advantage.

Light has Heavy Lancers, and Knights, both excellent counters to Abominations. Undead has little to counter those strong mounted units, except for a mounted range units and Wights. If the opponent is good you will need to roll over to Arbiters to counter his lancers. I would include the Death Bringer snares for help with that battle. 2 Arbiters, 1 Death bringer, and 2 Wights will give you a chance at battlefield superiority, long enough to cap his buildings.

Orc has Snipers, which in a pack of 3 troops can shred Abominations. However Rock Smashed Scissors, and a troop of 3 units of charging Heavy Cav will shred Snipers.

Undead vs Undead is a good matchup. You need to counter wights with wights, and Abominations with Death Bringers. Death Bringers counter with Humongus's. Bone Chariots with Humongus's.

So looking at the above Theorycrafting, here are the units I think I would need:

• 6 troops of Bone Chariots
• 6 troops of Wights
• 6 troops of Abominations
• 6 troops of Heavy Cav
• 3 troops of Armored Behemoth
• 2 troops of Behemoths
• 3 troops of Arbiters
• 6 troops of Death Bringers
• 3 troops of Humongus's

This is around 1000 CP, but it has counters for most armies.

Epic end game 4 player match

So several of us got together to demonstrate a big epic battle.

One thing I know when talking to friends that play Saga in the 10-20 Nation level is that they don't understand how fun and epic PvP can be. They spend so much time doing quests with 3 troops per side that the epic nature of the game isn't as obvious.

If you "watch in high quality" I think it looks pretty good full screen too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEF9H4vnCK0#

Thanks to Kheldara and Dark Rage and others for helping set this up. Kheldara was the big winner, and won 3000 or so gold.

The winner of a 225CP FFA can win up to 5000 gold from "Gods" depending on how many troops die in the battle. Also a 2v2 FFA match is no rating change, and give shards.

Defending your Territories - Based on Ironforge Nation

So I wanted to profile a couple armies each week to analyse what people are doing vs raiding.

This was started BEFORE the massive raiding nerfs in the free-build patch. Nerfs that we assume eventually will be fixed in a future patch but for now take raiding out of the game.


These nerfs I have referred to before: http://sagathoughts.blogspot.com/2008/07/raiding-and-several-pvp-features-are.html

• To start off, I sent spys to look at the main army and territory of the opponent. I picked Ironforge because since the raiding nerfs he's been rather chatty all of a sudden.


• Lets see why raiding shut him up for so long:

First of all, it looks as though he is in love with his Iron Tanks. This unit is a good PvE unit, but with it's horribly slow movement in PvP, it is pretty avoidable.




On his territories he does a little better. He stacks two troops of Bombardiers with one troop or heavy Cav.

Now ranged defenders are very buggy in raiding defense, they often don't agro on the attacking armies. But if they do agro, bombardiers woudl at least have a long agro range.

Ballistas are also talked about as good territory defense. This is incorrect except on a territory that is flat, with few rivers.

How would I change his defenses?

First,

If I were doing machine for territory defense I would use units that had awesome passives. (Specials don't fire well for the AI)

• Hunters for anti mounted. Auto Ballistas for anti infantry. Dwaven Axeman for living forever vs ranged.


• I would mix in the awesome commons like Light Cav.
• Light Cav with speed gear is FAST to attack. And cheap! 60cents a unit. http://www.sagaunits.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=125

• Get together a ton of speed gear and stick it on every unit. Speed is better then anything for defense. See above this light Cav has a 23 base speed. It will run in fast enough to prevent a cap, if the attacker is spread out trying to cap multiple buildings at once with single units on each.


• Make sure you have enough units in the territory. They don't die, so the more that swamp your opponent the better. I like about 600 CP in each territory.

The "Pulling a Christian" Video by Illian

By popular demand, here is the video that is referred to the most in /conflict in the last couple of days.

Shrine rush in the 1v1 PvP is defined as trying to take early shrines from the other player.

In this video, the player Christians rushs Illian's shrines. As you don't see where their initial units are positioned until the game starts, this ended up bad for his lone Chariot Archers.

This tactic although not strategically valid was not the problem. The problem was immediantly after this, he concedes the game (surrenders), complaining about a phantom itch on his butt.

Wow Christians, if you want to make up an excuse, here are some better ideas:

• My mom needs me to go get something from her car.


• My mouse unplugged.


• The game locked on me.


• Sorry phone.

or the best way to concede a game.

"Good game, get you next time."

The Final Charge of the Behemoth Video.

This is a quick video I made of Mithril Mines.

If you haven't played Saga at the end-game PvE, this is a pretty good representation of the scope and density of the troop fights.

Note all of these enemy troops are level 10 troops, so they take a bit to kill down.

If you click over to YouTube, they have a "watch in high quality" option that looks even better.

Raiding and several PvP features are broken - Use the time wisely!

- Source https://www.playsaga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6800&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

So the following features are currently bugged or happening in the game:

• Raiding god favor costs on Raiding are doubled. It costs 3000 god favor and 5 shards to do a full raid.
• Walls are untargetable in raids right now, so if the defender has a wall between you and plunder, its UNPASSABLE.
• You can put full walls around about 75% of your territory mana mines.
• In PvP the Gatehouses do not open.
• In raids the Defender Archers are getting bugged and often will not shoot through alot of the free-build.
• Alot of the new walls are causing LOS issues for your defending troops.

Ok, with all that going on, it is a perfect time to use the safehold time to pump up your army.

You should think about doing the following:

• Leveling your raiding army and defending troops for World Conflict.
• Setup your walls for your city and wilderness for how you will like them to be.
• Grind shards for enhancements of your army.
• Get ready for the Undead release by farming gold and moving it to Brotherhood if needed.
• Grind gold for upgrading your University. Level 3 police are nice vs espionage.

Sure we can all complain about the state of raiding as this thread shows, but you have to look at the Free-Build changes as an improvement. I like them, if other things are broken temporarily, its just time to do something new.

Finishing your Army Training?

So when do you call a unit "TRAINED?"

ie ready to PvP with.

Obviously if you are playing in end-game PvP, most players will have level 10 troops that they will fight you with. Especially the Beta players.

PvP in most MMO games is a combination of Gear/Skill/ Strategy. You don't want to be completely undergeared vs your opponents, that's where training or leveling your troops is important.

My theory is level 8 is a fine place to stop leveling a troop, and concentrate on a different unit.

The difference between Level 8 and Level 10 is 10% more Defence Rating, 10% more hitpoints, more morale and 10% more attack rating. In terms of numbers here is a level 10 and level 1 Treant

As you can see the Level 10 has many more hps and defence rating, making it live much longer.

Gear still plays an important part, as you can see looking at the same Level 1 Treant with great gear.

So my answer for this is Level 8. A Level 8 troop is good enough to fight with. After you get to level 8, you should move on to other units, and getting gear.

On Request! Raid on Karma Good Or Bad

So if you check the comments section of my previous post http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6435071171440404091&postID=5553832416058726992&isPopup=true, you will find that Karma Good Or Bad has requested open season on his single wilderness territory.

He wants to be raided.



My video is editted a little make it faster.

In the guise of science, I hit him twice this morning. Here is my review Karma, of your territory defenses.

1. Alot of high level common troops like cav archers, and light cav, and human archers. Most were higher levels which is good, but as you can tell from my video, my elementals are good at facing those types of troops.
2. Illian in his PvP Nature guide: http://www.sagaunits.com/sagaguide/naturepvp.html has completely disregarded Fire Elementals in 1v1 PvP, but I think they shine in raiding. Its a fireball that can capture a building. (As you will see in the video)
3. Your territory was nicely split out, no stack of storehouses in any one area. You make me run around the board which is good.
4. Kheldara http://sagathoughts.blogspot.com/2008/06/kheldara-interview-raiding-and.html recommends killing any resource node that you don't have near a watch tower. You want the attacker to eat tower arrows while holding off your troops.
5. If you note I tend to try to tank with my fire elementals while my lightning elementals caps behind them. This combo is good for capping because spreading out troops too much is bad in raids.

List of recommendations:

• Up your speed on your defenders. You want them to charge so I have to fight many at once. Speed gear, weapons and armor. If you can have me fighting 3 common armies at once, thats better then killing one at a time.
• Don't use anything slower then 12 speed. Just don't do it.
• More heavy cav. 25,000 gold for 12 is a great deal.
• Dragons are GREAT defenders. Hella easy to level to 7 or 8, and they have none of the pathing issues many troops have. The raider HAS to stop to cap something, and when he does, the dragon is annoying. If you were Light, white dragons are a CHEAP way to annoy people on raids.

Anyway good job Karma! Hopefully others will raid you too, and level your troops for you.

Illian's PvP Guide up!!

http://www.sagaunits.com/sagaguide/naturepvp.html
All his SECRETS revealed. For only $19.99. (Ok it's really free.)

If you DON'T check this out, you are wasting your time on the Internet. just FYI.

Especially if you are Nature.

Slobbiok REFUSED to spend his Saga winnings on hookers and blow!

Slobbiok took some time tonight to try to explain to me why rating was still important and useful.

I of course believe rating means nothing until Tourneyments are active:
http://sagathoughts.blogspot.com/2008/07/rating-means-nothing-pvp-for-fun.html

Slobbiok seems like a nice guy and after all he did get a heroic named after him for his Beta activities.

I normally would edit this and write this up, but man its a Sunday and I'm LAZY.

Just to spark your interest here are some of the good parts:

• Slobbiok plays Saga 100% free.
• Slobbiok is LOOKING FOR SOME DARK ELF BOWMAN.
• Slobbiok believes that if you are a mid-level player with all level 10 troops, that he can BEAT you with level 1 troops.
• www.sagaunits.com is sponsering him in tourneyments. (use coupon code CCIE5 for 5% off at www.sagaunits.com)
• Guildwars are still bugged as Slobbiok proved yesterday.
• Slobbiok goes to bed at 4:34pm PST or 7:34PM EST. Wow, can you say EARLY??

GG, thanks Slobbiok for the ninja interview.

This is not how you defend your territories...

So earlier today I talked about how to setup for raiding.

This topic will be what NOT to do.

1. First of all don't QQ in-game email.
2. Don't put your level 13 alt with 2 wilderness territories if you can't defend them.
3. Don't leave only 3 armies in your territories if you plan on defending it. 3 armies is a speed bump to anyone coming for a visit.

They raid was not worth it as you can tell, I only got 690ish supplies and 4 shards.

I'm sorry I scared your son! - Espionage Part 5

Wow this is kinda sad at the same time as being a little funny.

I hope his son keeps playing!

Ancestral not getting the point...

So one of the Saga players doesn't seem to get it...

First to understand this chain of emails, you need to realize Dawnbringer is Ancestral's alt that he is lowby PvP farmer. He plays level 10-14 players with level 7 troops. (This is a very high troop level for level 10-14, most of his opponents are probably fielding Level 3s.)

Then he attacks me for having a high fake rating. Even though I did a blog on this DAYS ago, with the idea to PROMOTE pvping for fun:

http://sagathoughts.blogspot.com/2008/07/rating-means-nothing-pvp-for-fun.html

Then he asks me to put my "main" on wilderness?? I have 4 wilderness on the CCIE nation. I swapped to Nature after playing it on my girlfriends account. You can CONSIDER my CCIE account my main, and feel free to raid me. You did raid me:

You got a total of 212 mats and 4 shards. (Raids cost 1500 god favor and 5 shards to run)

You guild has done a stack of raids on me, raids I welcome for the fun that ensues!

What's the problem?

I'm confused why you need to QQ?

LOL Elrandor!

Eldaror, I can't come out to play, I'm at work!

Hail the Chaos Actives!

The guild of our friendly neighborhood card seller http://www.sagaunits.com/ came to visit my wilderness territories.

I hope they got the joke for the fact my wilderness territories are defended by not 1 but 3 units of light infantry! :)

I talked to Sagaunits, and I told him that if they felt froggy to JUMP! (I also told him PvP is good for writing blog content :)

Here is the list of the mighty Chaos Actives:

TOWNSHIP OF REDFORD - so far raided me
RAGNORK
AZZAMEAE
JUDENIA
BLUHOTEYES BROTHEL
CHINCHILLA LAND
KALTHAX
DAWNBRINGER - I raided him
SAGAUNITSCOM - sold me lots of units
DARKRAGE
SHALLOW
HOLYKNIGHTS
JUDEA
LUSTERMERE - raided me
TREVORIA - raided me, I raided him back
GILMAR - raided me
ODINGARD
GUMMI
ANCESTRAL - espionaged me
TACONIA - raided me
KANDE

All I have to say is "Avast YOU fiend" :)

Oi! Swiper no swiping! - Espionage Part 3

I got returned visited today.

• After espionaging 600 people and getting success only 200 times, (successes don't tell the victim who hit them), out of 400 only 13 felt froggy enough to jump.

Thats a 4% froggy ratio.

• The only two nations that got froggy that have wilderness are Ancestral and Tortal.
• Ancestral of course being a level 35 nation who spends all day playing on his level 12 alt Dawnbringer spamming "Level 12 looking for pvp with 14 or lower". Of course I've been told he has leveled up a couple rank 10 troops on his level 12 nation so if you fight him, he fields all Level 10s.
• Whatever floats your boat.
• Tortal is a level 19 with a single wilderness.

Poor guy, seems like he just started.
Well I only started a month ago, and he DID felt froggy:

My raid didn't pay my costs in going to visit him. 143 gold, 92 wood, 147 stone and 159 food.

6 shards, it cost 5 to go play.

Kheldara says if you raid 5000 times you get a statue in the center of your town. - 4999 to go!

Espionaging - Part 2 - Profitable? Nope

• So I ended up espionaging about 592 Nations.


• Yes I really did copy and paste in almost 600 nation names.


• It cost me over 80,000 gold. I am very serious about my testing.

Here are the results:

1. On average even including the 31% bonus's from the University, I was hitting at about 1 in 4 for successes.


2. I would get on average about 220 supplies from a success.


3. It cost 600 gold for 4 attempts, so overall espionage costs the espionager more then the espionagee. This is even disregarding police, because I avoided espionaging people that most likely had police setup.

Here are the Nations I successfully hit.

See below on the left for the screenshot of the attempts. As you can see most are very minor successes.

Kheldara told me tonight that espionage was draining, and it was better to go raid and "Fill your Chariots with loot".

I have to agree with him...